[Coco] [CoCo] Just learning OS-9 - Questions

Tue May 28 11:56:05 EDT 2013

I say go for it. It's not something I would relish doing, but by all means, start designing it up and coding it.

The tool would not be a cure-all, end-all for boot disk creation. It would have to contend with multiple scenarios, and it would not be able to cover every possible system configuration without being extremely complex.

I still think the best approach is to provide a bunch of disk images that fit 80% of the boot scenarios, then let those with the desire to venture out into the more esoteric do so...

Merci,
Boisy

On May 28, 2013, at 10:19 AM, L. Curtis Boyle <curtisboyle at sasktel.net> wrote:

> I think "using cross-development tools and a cross-hosted environment" is missing the point... the people who already know how to set up programming environments, IDE's and the like are the ones technically minded enough to figure out how to make custom boot disks, as long as they have clear instructions. I think what Nick (and myself, years back) was getting at is making it easy for a user (not a programmer) to be able to set up a boot disk. There are some things that you can safely default without user intervention - you always need a kernal, you always need IOMAN, you always need SCF and RBF (well technically not, but no "normal" user is going to run without those present). So, you should only need to have a utility do the following:
> 1) Make sure the OS9Boot is not too large
> 2) Allow the user to select devices (with easy to understand text describing each one, ie "Tandy Floppy controller disk drive" ,  "Hard drive, Burke&Burke controller", "Tandy RS-232 pack", etc.). It should then allow the user to set the specific parameters for them (drive #, # tracks/sides, default baud rate, etc.) to customize the descriptor right then (and have common defaults, ex. FD501, FD502). The config program should then load the drivers (based on the driver name in the descriptor) automatically, without the user ever having to see/worry about it. The descriptions could be a small text file, so that they are easily modifiable as more devices get added. Also, they can select VDG support (maybe mention a few common programs that require it), and how many window descriptors they want at this time (if you detect the user has 128K, you can automatically limit this, or offer an either/or scenario for VDG vs. WindInt, etc.)
> 3) Allow the user the set the defaults in the INIT module
> 4) Using the size of the boot device selected by the user, create the CMDS directory with bare essentials by default (SHELL with a few merged smaller utilities, GRFDRV), and device size permitting, allow the user to select some common ones (a few merged utils packages, BASIC09, etc.) to put on the disk as well.
> 
> I realize that I may have some module names wrong up above; I still haven't gotten a new version of NitrOS9 running on my Coco 3 here (I am beginning to suspect that either the DSKUTIL.EXE I have is not working properly, or my PC drive is having problems writing disks beyond 40 track/single sided properly... I am getting CRC errors constantly. I may have to find a copy of the PCDOS utility again, and use my BASIC09 program to convert a DSK file to a real disk instead).
> 
> L. Curtis Boyle
> curtisboyle at sasktel.net
> 
> 
> 
> On May 28, 2013, at 8:00 AM, Boisy Pitre wrote:
> 
>> It's interesting that this discussion is happening now. In the CoCo IRC chat room, we briefly discussed how to improve the ability to create custom NitrOS-9 bootable images on cross-hosted environments (not on the CoCo itself).
>> 
>> The beauty of NitrOS-9 is that it can be configured in many different ways due to its modular architecture. It's also a curse because beginners feel overwhelmed with the tools and the process.
>> 
>> To alleviate that to a large degree, the NitrOS-9 Project makes available a number of canned disk images, preconfigured for various configurations (40T DS boot, 80T DS boot, DriveWire boot).
>> 
>> There is also the mb script found inside of the NITROS9 subfolder. The process is documented here: 
>> 
>> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/nitros9/index.php?title=Getting_Started_with_NitrOS-9#Customizing_Your_System
>> 
>> As someone pointed out, Config came with OS-9 Level One Vr. 2 and OS-9 Level Two for the CoCo and CoCo 3. This tool was written by Microware to attempt to make it easy for people to create bootable, custom disks. I always felt that config fell short from the ideal, not because it wasn't a good attempt, but because there are so many different possible configurations that could be built, that it would be hard to capture all of those permutations in one tool.
>> 
>> This has only gotten harder with NitrOS-9 which has a bunch more drivers and supports more hardware out of the box than either OS-9 Level One or OS- 9 Level Two did.
>> 
>> The current approaches to solve this problem are two fold:
>> 
>> 1) Use cross-development tools and a cross-hosted environment (Mac/Linux/Win) to quickly build a custom disk image.
>> 2) Use a self-hosted tool like Config to create a custom disk image.
>> 
>> Both approaches are plagued with this problem: How do you shoehorn all of the possible permutations into an easy to use, intuitive program that won't bog down new users. The more options the program has, the more frustrating it will be to use for people who don't know OS-9.
>> 
>> One must also be aware when building a custom boot disk that certain prerequisites exist: certain drivers need certain descriptors and file managers. If a module that is required is left out, it will result in a failed OS-9 boot. Then there's memory limitations. OS-9 boot files cannot be greater than a certain size, so you cannot just shove everything in the boot file.
>> 
>> This is not an easy problem to solve. OS-9 is >30 years old, and it's still something that new users grapple with. It is the nature of the beast, if you will. 
>> 
>> 
>> On May 27, 2013, at 10:53 PM, Bill Pierce <ooogalapasooo at aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Nick, Well said :-)
>>> When I started on OS-9, I had a single FD-502 35trk drive. The standard Tandy/Microware level 1 boot disk worked fine. Then I found out that most 502s had double sided 40s living under the hood.... I learned how to patch a descriptor (pre dmode, level 1). One by one, I found patches for this, patches for that and I slowley began to understand the whole making a boot process. How to use cobbler and OS9Gen. Then the Coco 3 and Level 2 came out. More drivers and more patches, then more patches. It took me from 1984 to 1989 to learn boot making. With a single drive, my configuration was easy as far as drivers. It was all the patches and the "blob" fix in which modules had to be moved around to avoid crashing almost everytime you added a new module or changed the size of another.
>>> By the time I started using Jeff's 1st Coco 3 emulator, I had become very proficient at boot making, then David Kiel's emulators, then Vcc.. I now make boots in minutes to do whatever I (or someone else) need.
>>> But... I remember those frustrating days rebotting and rebuilding till I got it right. Over and over again.
>>> 
>>> Personally, in the past 2 years I have helped at least 20 different people get their OS-9 boots going. Some knew nothing of OS-9, some were old hands, but had forgotten the process or just didn't know how to use the available 3rd party tools.
>>> An easy to use editor with a few friendly, simple prompts and a good archive of all the current drivers and modules would be welcome to anyone trying to create a new boot from scratch.
>>> 
>>> Bill Pierce
>>> My Music from the Tandy/Radio Shack Color Computer 2 & 3
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/dabarnstudio/
>>> Co-Webmaster of The TRS-80 Color Computer Archive
>>> http://www.colorcomputerarchive.com/
>>> Co-Contributor, Co-Editor for CocoPedia
>>> http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>>> E-Mail: ooogalapasooo at aol.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nickma <nickma at optusnet.com.au>
>>> To: CoCoList <coco at maltedmedia.com>
>>> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 11:00 pm
>>> Subject: [Coco] Just learning OS-9 - Questions
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Basically, if a "newbie" wants to learn about OS-9 and decides to
>>> generate a custom disk, he needs an easy "newbie" way to select the
>>> modules and hit "GO" and out comes a fully configure and bootable OS-9
>>> disk.
>>> 
>>> He should not have to go hunting for drives, editing bootlists etc
>>> 
>>> Some disk/s that contain all the OS-9 modules/driver/commands known to
>>> mortal man, together in the one place and he picks and chooses via a
>>> menu.
>>> 
>>> We can't assume everyone who tries OS-9 is going to be a "rocket
>>> scientist" or "engineer". 
>>> 
>>> It's the difference between fixing an OS and *USING* an OS and however
>>> "powerful" that OS is, it means nothing if most people can't use it
>>> and produce software for it
>>> 
>>> (climbing down from soapbox)
>>> 
>>> That felt good!   :)
>>> 
>>> Nick
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message----- 
>>> From: Brett Gordon  
>>> To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts  
>>> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 7:27 pm 
>>> Subject: Re: [Coco] Just learning OS-9 - Questions 
>>> 
>>> I'm not sure about installation, but my CoCoBoot project is moving
>>> along, 
>>> and will soon add the ability to install certain modules dynamically
>>> at 
>>> bootup ( via config file or keyboard )... and soon cobbled blobs of
>>> OS9 
>>> modules will be a thing of the past. I plan on making a menu/gui
>>> driven 
>>> wrapper for creating boot disks for os9. Maybe this could be extended 
>>> toward installing os9 too. 
>>> 
>>> Brett
>>> -------------------------
>>> Email sent using Optus Webmail
>>> 
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