[Coco] [CoCo] Just learning OS-9 - Questions

Tue May 28 11:37:43 EDT 2013

That is the exact same way my utility works - open the device in raw mode, and copy LSN0 last. You can see my version (in BASIC09) here:
http://www.lcurtisboyle.com/nitros9/convdsk.b09

L. Curtis Boyle
curtisboyle at sasktel.net

On May 28, 2013, at 9:30 AM, Luis Antoniosi (CoCoDemus) wrote:

> Talking about transfering files I just had a problem this week. As I don't
> have a PC with internal floppy drive - they are so 80's :o) i had to rely
> on driveWire and use my coco gear to make it. And I found that transferring
> a non OS-9 40 track floppy (The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is one)
> impossible with the tools I had in hands. No, RS-DOS backup will stop at
> atrack 35 and OS-9 backup starts writing the LSN0 and screws the drive
> access so far.
> 
> I tried making a Basic09 program and I found it has issues beyond track 35
> too, so I made my very own rawcopy tool for os-9 that copies the raw file
> or raw device to another device, but it skips the LSN0 and it will copy it
> as a final step. So i can use it as: rawcopy /x1@ /d0@ or even rawcopy
> image.dsk /d0@ and it worked fine :)
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 11:19 AM, L. Curtis Boyle
> <curtisboyle at sasktel.net>wrote:
> 
>> I think "using cross-development tools and a cross-hosted environment" is
>> missing the point... the people who already know how to set up programming
>> environments, IDE's and the like are the ones technically minded enough to
>> figure out how to make custom boot disks, as long as they have clear
>> instructions. I think what Nick (and myself, years back) was getting at is
>> making it easy for a user (not a programmer) to be able to set up a boot
>> disk. There are some things that you can safely default without user
>> intervention - you always need a kernal, you always need IOMAN, you always
>> need SCF and RBF (well technically not, but no "normal" user is going to
>> run without those present). So, you should only need to have a utility do
>> the following:
>> 1) Make sure the OS9Boot is not too large
>> 2) Allow the user to select devices (with easy to understand text
>> describing each one, ie "Tandy Floppy controller disk drive" ,  "Hard
>> drive, Burke&Burke controller", "Tandy RS-232 pack", etc.). It should then
>> allow the user to set the specific parameters for them (drive #, #
>> tracks/sides, default baud rate, etc.) to customize the descriptor right
>> then (and have common defaults, ex. FD501, FD502). The config program
>> should then load the drivers (based on the driver name in the descriptor)
>> automatically, without the user ever having to see/worry about it. The
>> descriptions could be a small text file, so that they are easily modifiable
>> as more devices get added. Also, they can select VDG support (maybe mention
>> a few common programs that require it), and how many window descriptors
>> they want at this time (if you detect the user has 128K, you can
>> automatically limit this, or offer an either/or scenario for VDG vs.
>> WindInt, etc.)
>> 3) Allow the user the set the defaults in the INIT module
>> 4) Using the size of the boot device selected by the user, create the CMDS
>> directory with bare essentials by default (SHELL with a few merged smaller
>> utilities, GRFDRV), and device size permitting, allow the user to select
>> some common ones (a few merged utils packages, BASIC09, etc.) to put on the
>> disk as well.
>> 
>> I realize that I may have some module names wrong up above; I still
>> haven't gotten a new version of NitrOS9 running on my Coco 3 here (I am
>> beginning to suspect that either the DSKUTIL.EXE I have is not working
>> properly, or my PC drive is having problems writing disks beyond 40
>> track/single sided properly... I am getting CRC errors constantly. I may
>> have to find a copy of the PCDOS utility again, and use my BASIC09 program
>> to convert a DSK file to a real disk instead).
>> 
>> L. Curtis Boyle
>> curtisboyle at sasktel.net
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On May 28, 2013, at 8:00 AM, Boisy Pitre wrote:
>> 
>>> It's interesting that this discussion is happening now. In the CoCo IRC
>> chat room, we briefly discussed how to improve the ability to create custom
>> NitrOS-9 bootable images on cross-hosted environments (not on the CoCo
>> itself).
>>> 
>>> The beauty of NitrOS-9 is that it can be configured in many different
>> ways due to its modular architecture. It's also a curse because beginners
>> feel overwhelmed with the tools and the process.
>>> 
>>> To alleviate that to a large degree, the NitrOS-9 Project makes
>> available a number of canned disk images, preconfigured for various
>> configurations (40T DS boot, 80T DS boot, DriveWire boot).
>>> 
>>> There is also the mb script found inside of the NITROS9 subfolder. The
>> process is documented here:
>>> 
>>> 
>> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/nitros9/index.php?title=Getting_Started_with_NitrOS-9#Customizing_Your_System
>>> 
>>> As someone pointed out, Config came with OS-9 Level One Vr. 2 and OS-9
>> Level Two for the CoCo and CoCo 3. This tool was written by Microware to
>> attempt to make it easy for people to create bootable, custom disks. I
>> always felt that config fell short from the ideal, not because it wasn't a
>> good attempt, but because there are so many different possible
>> configurations that could be built, that it would be hard to capture all of
>> those permutations in one tool.
>>> 
>>> This has only gotten harder with NitrOS-9 which has a bunch more drivers
>> and supports more hardware out of the box than either OS-9 Level One or OS-
>> 9 Level Two did.
>>> 
>>> The current approaches to solve this problem are two fold:
>>> 
>>> 1) Use cross-development tools and a cross-hosted environment
>> (Mac/Linux/Win) to quickly build a custom disk image.
>>> 2) Use a self-hosted tool like Config to create a custom disk image.
>>> 
>>> Both approaches are plagued with this problem: How do you shoehorn all
>> of the possible permutations into an easy to use, intuitive program that
>> won't bog down new users. The more options the program has, the more
>> frustrating it will be to use for people who don't know OS-9.
>>> 
>>> One must also be aware when building a custom boot disk that certain
>> prerequisites exist: certain drivers need certain descriptors and file
>> managers. If a module that is required is left out, it will result in a
>> failed OS-9 boot. Then there's memory limitations. OS-9 boot files cannot
>> be greater than a certain size, so you cannot just shove everything in the
>> boot file.
>>> 
>>> This is not an easy problem to solve. OS-9 is >30 years old, and it's
>> still something that new users grapple with. It is the nature of the beast,
>> if you will.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On May 27, 2013, at 10:53 PM, Bill Pierce <ooogalapasooo at aol.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Nick, Well said :-)
>>>> When I started on OS-9, I had a single FD-502 35trk drive. The standard
>> Tandy/Microware level 1 boot disk worked fine. Then I found out that most
>> 502s had double sided 40s living under the hood.... I learned how to patch
>> a descriptor (pre dmode, level 1). One by one, I found patches for this,
>> patches for that and I slowley began to understand the whole making a boot
>> process. How to use cobbler and OS9Gen. Then the Coco 3 and Level 2 came
>> out. More drivers and more patches, then more patches. It took me from 1984
>> to 1989 to learn boot making. With a single drive, my configuration was
>> easy as far as drivers. It was all the patches and the "blob" fix in which
>> modules had to be moved around to avoid crashing almost everytime you added
>> a new module or changed the size of another.
>>>> By the time I started using Jeff's 1st Coco 3 emulator, I had become
>> very proficient at boot making, then David Kiel's emulators, then Vcc.. I
>> now make boots in minutes to do whatever I (or someone else) need.
>>>> But... I remember those frustrating days rebotting and rebuilding till
>> I got it right. Over and over again.
>>>> 
>>>> Personally, in the past 2 years I have helped at least 20 different
>> people get their OS-9 boots going. Some knew nothing of OS-9, some were old
>> hands, but had forgotten the process or just didn't know how to use the
>> available 3rd party tools.
>>>> An easy to use editor with a few friendly, simple prompts and a good
>> archive of all the current drivers and modules would be welcome to anyone
>> trying to create a new boot from scratch.
>>>> 
>>>> Bill Pierce
>>>> My Music from the Tandy/Radio Shack Color Computer 2 & 3
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/dabarnstudio/
>>>> Co-Webmaster of The TRS-80 Color Computer Archive
>>>> http://www.colorcomputerarchive.com/
>>>> Co-Contributor, Co-Editor for CocoPedia
>>>> http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>>>> E-Mail: ooogalapasooo at aol.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nickma <nickma at optusnet.com.au>
>>>> To: CoCoList <coco at maltedmedia.com>
>>>> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 11:00 pm
>>>> Subject: [Coco] Just learning OS-9 - Questions
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Basically, if a "newbie" wants to learn about OS-9 and decides to
>>>> generate a custom disk, he needs an easy "newbie" way to select the
>>>> modules and hit "GO" and out comes a fully configure and bootable OS-9
>>>> disk.
>>>> 
>>>> He should not have to go hunting for drives, editing bootlists etc
>>>> 
>>>> Some disk/s that contain all the OS-9 modules/driver/commands known to
>>>> mortal man, together in the one place and he picks and chooses via a
>>>> menu.
>>>> 
>>>> We can't assume everyone who tries OS-9 is going to be a "rocket
>>>> scientist" or "engineer".
>>>> 
>>>> It's the difference between fixing an OS and *USING* an OS and however
>>>> "powerful" that OS is, it means nothing if most people can't use it
>>>> and produce software for it
>>>> 
>>>> (climbing down from soapbox)
>>>> 
>>>> That felt good!   :)
>>>> 
>>>> Nick
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Brett Gordon
>>>> To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts
>>>> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 7:27 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [Coco] Just learning OS-9 - Questions
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not sure about installation, but my CoCoBoot project is moving
>>>> along,
>>>> and will soon add the ability to install certain modules dynamically
>>>> at
>>>> bootup ( via config file or keyboard )... and soon cobbled blobs of
>>>> OS9
>>>> modules will be a thing of the past. I plan on making a menu/gui
>>>> driven
>>>> wrapper for creating boot disks for os9. Maybe this could be extended
>>>> toward installing os9 too.
>>>> 
>>>> Brett
>>>> -------------------------
>>>> Email sent using Optus Webmail
>>>> 
>>>> Links:
>>>> ------
>>>> [1] http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco
>>>> [2] http://five.pairlistnet/mailman/listinfo/coco
>>>> 
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