[Coco] [CoCo] Just learning OS-9 - Questions

Tue May 28 11:30:16 EDT 2013

Talking about transfering files I just had a problem this week. As I don't
have a PC with internal floppy drive - they are so 80's :o) i had to rely
on driveWire and use my coco gear to make it. And I found that transferring
a non OS-9 40 track floppy (The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is one)
impossible with the tools I had in hands. No, RS-DOS backup will stop at
atrack 35 and OS-9 backup starts writing the LSN0 and screws the drive
access so far.

I tried making a Basic09 program and I found it has issues beyond track 35
too, so I made my very own rawcopy tool for os-9 that copies the raw file
or raw device to another device, but it skips the LSN0 and it will copy it
as a final step. So i can use it as: rawcopy /x1@ /d0@ or even rawcopy
image.dsk /d0@ and it worked fine :)

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 11:19 AM, L. Curtis Boyle
<curtisboyle at sasktel.net>wrote:

> I think "using cross-development tools and a cross-hosted environment" is
> missing the point... the people who already know how to set up programming
> environments, IDE's and the like are the ones technically minded enough to
> figure out how to make custom boot disks, as long as they have clear
> instructions. I think what Nick (and myself, years back) was getting at is
> making it easy for a user (not a programmer) to be able to set up a boot
> disk. There are some things that you can safely default without user
> intervention - you always need a kernal, you always need IOMAN, you always
> need SCF and RBF (well technically not, but no "normal" user is going to
> run without those present). So, you should only need to have a utility do
> the following:
> 1) Make sure the OS9Boot is not too large
> 2) Allow the user to select devices (with easy to understand text
> describing each one, ie "Tandy Floppy controller disk drive" ,  "Hard
> drive, Burke&Burke controller", "Tandy RS-232 pack", etc.). It should then
> allow the user to set the specific parameters for them (drive #, #
> tracks/sides, default baud rate, etc.) to customize the descriptor right
> then (and have common defaults, ex. FD501, FD502). The config program
> should then load the drivers (based on the driver name in the descriptor)
> automatically, without the user ever having to see/worry about it. The
> descriptions could be a small text file, so that they are easily modifiable
> as more devices get added. Also, they can select VDG support (maybe mention
> a few common programs that require it), and how many window descriptors
> they want at this time (if you detect the user has 128K, you can
> automatically limit this, or offer an either/or scenario for VDG vs.
> WindInt, etc.)
> 3) Allow the user the set the defaults in the INIT module
> 4) Using the size of the boot device selected by the user, create the CMDS
> directory with bare essentials by default (SHELL with a few merged smaller
> utilities, GRFDRV), and device size permitting, allow the user to select
> some common ones (a few merged utils packages, BASIC09, etc.) to put on the
> disk as well.
>
> I realize that I may have some module names wrong up above; I still
> haven't gotten a new version of NitrOS9 running on my Coco 3 here (I am
> beginning to suspect that either the DSKUTIL.EXE I have is not working
> properly, or my PC drive is having problems writing disks beyond 40
> track/single sided properly... I am getting CRC errors constantly. I may
> have to find a copy of the PCDOS utility again, and use my BASIC09 program
> to convert a DSK file to a real disk instead).
>
> L. Curtis Boyle
> curtisboyle at sasktel.net
>
>
>
> On May 28, 2013, at 8:00 AM, Boisy Pitre wrote:
>
> > It's interesting that this discussion is happening now. In the CoCo IRC
> chat room, we briefly discussed how to improve the ability to create custom
> NitrOS-9 bootable images on cross-hosted environments (not on the CoCo
> itself).
> >
> > The beauty of NitrOS-9 is that it can be configured in many different
> ways due to its modular architecture. It's also a curse because beginners
> feel overwhelmed with the tools and the process.
> >
> > To alleviate that to a large degree, the NitrOS-9 Project makes
> available a number of canned disk images, preconfigured for various
> configurations (40T DS boot, 80T DS boot, DriveWire boot).
> >
> > There is also the mb script found inside of the NITROS9 subfolder. The
> process is documented here:
> >
> >
> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/nitros9/index.php?title=Getting_Started_with_NitrOS-9#Customizing_Your_System
> >
> > As someone pointed out, Config came with OS-9 Level One Vr. 2 and OS-9
> Level Two for the CoCo and CoCo 3. This tool was written by Microware to
> attempt to make it easy for people to create bootable, custom disks. I
> always felt that config fell short from the ideal, not because it wasn't a
> good attempt, but because there are so many different possible
> configurations that could be built, that it would be hard to capture all of
> those permutations in one tool.
> >
> > This has only gotten harder with NitrOS-9 which has a bunch more drivers
> and supports more hardware out of the box than either OS-9 Level One or OS-
> 9 Level Two did.
> >
> > The current approaches to solve this problem are two fold:
> >
> > 1) Use cross-development tools and a cross-hosted environment
> (Mac/Linux/Win) to quickly build a custom disk image.
> > 2) Use a self-hosted tool like Config to create a custom disk image.
> >
> > Both approaches are plagued with this problem: How do you shoehorn all
> of the possible permutations into an easy to use, intuitive program that
> won't bog down new users. The more options the program has, the more
> frustrating it will be to use for people who don't know OS-9.
> >
> > One must also be aware when building a custom boot disk that certain
> prerequisites exist: certain drivers need certain descriptors and file
> managers. If a module that is required is left out, it will result in a
> failed OS-9 boot. Then there's memory limitations. OS-9 boot files cannot
> be greater than a certain size, so you cannot just shove everything in the
> boot file.
> >
> > This is not an easy problem to solve. OS-9 is >30 years old, and it's
> still something that new users grapple with. It is the nature of the beast,
> if you will.
> >
> >
> > On May 27, 2013, at 10:53 PM, Bill Pierce <ooogalapasooo at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Nick, Well said :-)
> >> When I started on OS-9, I had a single FD-502 35trk drive. The standard
> Tandy/Microware level 1 boot disk worked fine. Then I found out that most
> 502s had double sided 40s living under the hood.... I learned how to patch
> a descriptor (pre dmode, level 1). One by one, I found patches for this,
> patches for that and I slowley began to understand the whole making a boot
> process. How to use cobbler and OS9Gen. Then the Coco 3 and Level 2 came
> out. More drivers and more patches, then more patches. It took me from 1984
> to 1989 to learn boot making. With a single drive, my configuration was
> easy as far as drivers. It was all the patches and the "blob" fix in which
> modules had to be moved around to avoid crashing almost everytime you added
> a new module or changed the size of another.
> >> By the time I started using Jeff's 1st Coco 3 emulator, I had become
> very proficient at boot making, then David Kiel's emulators, then Vcc.. I
> now make boots in minutes to do whatever I (or someone else) need.
> >> But... I remember those frustrating days rebotting and rebuilding till
> I got it right. Over and over again.
> >>
> >> Personally, in the past 2 years I have helped at least 20 different
> people get their OS-9 boots going. Some knew nothing of OS-9, some were old
> hands, but had forgotten the process or just didn't know how to use the
> available 3rd party tools.
> >> An easy to use editor with a few friendly, simple prompts and a good
> archive of all the current drivers and modules would be welcome to anyone
> trying to create a new boot from scratch.
> >>
> >> Bill Pierce
> >> My Music from the Tandy/Radio Shack Color Computer 2 & 3
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/dabarnstudio/
> >> Co-Webmaster of The TRS-80 Color Computer Archive
> >> http://www.colorcomputerarchive.com/
> >> Co-Contributor, Co-Editor for CocoPedia
> >> http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
> >> E-Mail: ooogalapasooo at aol.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nickma <nickma at optusnet.com.au>
> >> To: CoCoList <coco at maltedmedia.com>
> >> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 11:00 pm
> >> Subject: [Coco] Just learning OS-9 - Questions
> >>
> >>
> >> Basically, if a "newbie" wants to learn about OS-9 and decides to
> >> generate a custom disk, he needs an easy "newbie" way to select the
> >> modules and hit "GO" and out comes a fully configure and bootable OS-9
> >> disk.
> >>
> >> He should not have to go hunting for drives, editing bootlists etc
> >>
> >> Some disk/s that contain all the OS-9 modules/driver/commands known to
> >> mortal man, together in the one place and he picks and chooses via a
> >> menu.
> >>
> >> We can't assume everyone who tries OS-9 is going to be a "rocket
> >> scientist" or "engineer".
> >>
> >> It's the difference between fixing an OS and *USING* an OS and however
> >> "powerful" that OS is, it means nothing if most people can't use it
> >> and produce software for it
> >>
> >> (climbing down from soapbox)
> >>
> >> That felt good!   :)
> >>
> >> Nick
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Brett Gordon
> >> To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts
> >> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 7:27 pm
> >> Subject: Re: [Coco] Just learning OS-9 - Questions
> >>
> >> I'm not sure about installation, but my CoCoBoot project is moving
> >> along,
> >> and will soon add the ability to install certain modules dynamically
> >> at
> >> bootup ( via config file or keyboard )... and soon cobbled blobs of
> >> OS9
> >> modules will be a thing of the past. I plan on making a menu/gui
> >> driven
> >> wrapper for creating boot disks for os9. Maybe this could be extended
> >> toward installing os9 too.
> >>
> >> Brett
> >> -------------------------
> >> Email sent using Optus Webmail
> >>
> >> Links:
> >> ------
> >> [1] http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco
> >> [2] http://five.pairlistnet/mailman/listinfo/coco
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
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Long live the CoCo