[Coco] Cloud-9 Product Comments Wanted

[jdaggett at gate.net]

Mark

By hand layout I meant using the manual router within Allegro. When I worked for 
Motorola I used Cadence Tools, both the Schematic Capture and PCB layout. 
Started using them before the company was known as Cadence. Back in the early 
days it was known as Valid Logic, circa 1988. I often used the manual router in 
Allegro to do most of my PCB layouts for actual pagers. For my software test 
boards I did use Spectra. Actually I did PCB routing on occasiion. It was not my 
main function. I mostly  did it do to a period where we had a shortage of others to do 
the PCB layout. I am very very familiar with the Cadence tools. I worked with the 
Schematic capture program from 1989 to 2001. I remember the first copy of Allegro 
that we used was version 2.1. Last I heard they were well beyond version 12.  

On a Sparc 10, Spectra routed my software test boards in 45 minutes. The board 
measured about 8 by 10 inches and four layers. But for actual shipping products the 
autorouter did not do well when it came to EMI performance and really for RF 
performance. The CCT type autorouters are bay far the better rou ters, but still in 
my opinion they are best for moderately low frequency digital work. Even today's 
modern computer motherboards where you have busses at 400 Mhz you need to 
impart tranmission line theory into the layout of runners to minimize EMI radiation 
and to prevent horrible effects of mismatched loads. At those clock speeds the 
runners on a PCB become RF transmission lines. If you don't take care in routing,  
the board will radiate like a banshee. 

At home, for hobby stuff I use Ivex and have used the tools from PCBExpress. 

Surprising enough once you get the hang of a tool and have a good netlist 
generated from the schematic, manual layout can be almost as fast as an 
autorouter. While it has been about 4  yrs since I  have done professional PCB 
layout, It is not unconceivable that the software has improved. Still I prefer to do RF 
layout manually with computer programs rather than autorouters. 

The Cadence tools are very nice. I do prefer them over Mentor Graphics. Unless 
Mentor has changed in the past 3 yrs, it sucks big time. Those guys still think in 
terms of the  old Cads 4X systems by Computer Vision from the early 80's.
 
just my preference

james


On 26 Jan 2005 at 21:04, Mark Marlette wrote:

Date sent:      	Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:04:49 -0600
To:             	CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts 
<coco at maltedmedia.com>
From:           	Mark Marlette <mark at cloud9tech.com>
Subject:        	Re: [Coco] Cloud-9 Product Comments Wanted
Send reply to:  	CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts 
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> At 08:39 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote:
> 
> james,
> 
> I hate traffic too but it is a fact of life.
> 
> I run the Specctra autorouter at home which is of the Cadence stock
> now. I'll agree that it is the captain of autorouters. I like it,
> works well and fast. When it comes to the trace crunch it works well.
> 
> Curious...When you say you route by hand. Is this for your job or what
> you do at home? I can't image that hand routing is in much demand
> these days. I do this for fun and won't hand route. Kind of like my
> Mom use to say about not having a dishwasher. "I like to wash dishes."
> Well I don't mind it but if I had a choice to do other things, washing
> dishes wouldn't be too high on my fun list. Same goes with
> routing.......IMHO. The things I do, SuperIDE pushed a double layer
> board too close to the edge, I'm fine with the router or I buy another
> option license to tackle the analog/digital separation issue, etc. I'm
> 41 now and have been with the coco a year or so short of it's whole
> life. Don't need to grow older any faster....... :)
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >Mark
> >
> >I hate autorouters, they are pitifully pathetic in routing. Secondly
> >if you have lots or room and slow speed digital, then an autorouter
> >is ok.  The only decent autorouter that I have worked with is
> >Spectra, which is now a product of Cadence Allegro PCB tools. The old
> >autorouter in Allegro before they bought Spectra, was garbage. The
> >autorouter in Mentor Graphics was less desirable. I mean we are
> >talking about software packages that cost upward to $50K one time
> >cost with annual seat licenses of $2K per yr. They had garbage
> >autorouters.
> >
> >james
> >
> >
> >I still prefer to route by hand. Especially RF and high speed Data.
> >
> >On 25 Jan 2005 at 23:18, Mark Marlette wrote:
> >
> >Date sent:              Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:18:09 -0600
> >To:                     CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts
> ><coco at maltedmedia.com>
> >From:                   Mark Marlette <mark at cloud9tech.com>
> >Subject:                Re: [Coco] Cloud-9 Product Comments
> >Wanted
> >Send reply to:          CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts
> ><coco at maltedmedia.com>
> >         <mailto:coco-
> >request at maltedmedia.com?subject=unsubscribe>
> >         <mailto:coco-
> >request at maltedmedia.com?subject=subscribe>
> >
> > > The SuperIDE is also pushed the autorouter to the max on the
> > > double layer design. A lesson learned not to push it that hard and
> > > to go to multi-layer design. The SB will be multi-layer, no doubt.
> >
> >
> >
> >--
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> 
> 
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